From another thread, bundt said the following:
<<Abbadon is owed. He tells Locke to go on a walkabout. Locke says he can't. Abbadon tells him that he will eventually change his mind, and when he does, Locke will owe him one. To my mind that statement right there is key. First because Locke owes him. Second, because the good guys' advice doesn't come with a price tag, which means Abbadon is not a good guy. Not that I ever thought he was, but this confirms it to me.>>
Abaddon is enigmatic with a capital "ENIGMATIC".
bundt's point about the "good guys" not asking for favors in return for their information is well-taken, but that said I'm not entirely sure that he's Widmore's man, either. So far, I'm all but certain we haven't seen the full purpose of Charlotte and Miles, at the very least, or possibly Faraday as well. And they do NOT seem to be working toward the same goals as Keamy & Krew.
He certainly doesn't seem to be affiliated with Ben & RIchard, either.
I do have an intuition about him, though...what if he's working with Ms. Hawking and Brother Campbell, and they're an as-yet-little-known third player in the Ben/Widmore conflict? Were that the case, then Abaddon could very well be infiltrating Widmore's organization for that group, whose ends we don't yet know except that they do seem to be concerned with the fate of the planet (given Hawking's entreaty to Desmond that his button-pushing and/or key-turning would prove to be the salvation of us all from some unnamed dire fate).
Or, do you guys think I'm just over-complicating things and that there really are only two factions—Widmore's & Ben's, with our Losaways being "wild cards"—fighting over the Island?
<<Abbadon is owed. He tells Locke to go on a walkabout. Locke says he can't. Abbadon tells him that he will eventually change his mind, and when he does, Locke will owe him one. To my mind that statement right there is key. First because Locke owes him. Second, because the good guys' advice doesn't come with a price tag, which means Abbadon is not a good guy. Not that I ever thought he was, but this confirms it to me.>>
Abaddon is enigmatic with a capital "ENIGMATIC".
bundt's point about the "good guys" not asking for favors in return for their information is well-taken, but that said I'm not entirely sure that he's Widmore's man, either. So far, I'm all but certain we haven't seen the full purpose of Charlotte and Miles, at the very least, or possibly Faraday as well. And they do NOT seem to be working toward the same goals as Keamy & Krew.
He certainly doesn't seem to be affiliated with Ben & RIchard, either.
I do have an intuition about him, though...what if he's working with Ms. Hawking and Brother Campbell, and they're an as-yet-little-known third player in the Ben/Widmore conflict? Were that the case, then Abaddon could very well be infiltrating Widmore's organization for that group, whose ends we don't yet know except that they do seem to be concerned with the fate of the planet (given Hawking's entreaty to Desmond that his button-pushing and/or key-turning would prove to be the salvation of us all from some unnamed dire fate).
Or, do you guys think I'm just over-complicating things and that there really are only two factions—Widmore's & Ben's, with our Losaways being "wild cards"—fighting over the Island?
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Re: So...what IS Abaddon's deal, anyway?
Tue, May 13, 2008 - 1:17 PMHe is creepy. So far that is all I know.
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Re: So...what IS Abaddon's deal, anyway?
Tue, May 13, 2008 - 1:43 PMNo, I definitely think there is more to this than Ben vs. Charles. But I do think there is something to the dark vs. light aspect of the show. I mean, Richard and Abbadon is a primary example. With a name like Abbadon and the line about owing him, I think it is clear which side of the dark/light he is on.
I would not rule out a deeper force of the dark side usurping Widmore's plans. -
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Re: So...what IS Abaddon's deal, anyway?
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 4:11 PM@bundt
<<But I do think there is something to the dark vs. light aspect of the show.>>
As I said in my piece for DocArzt, tho, I think that black and white is only the province of games and stories. I've long felt that it was a red herring trying to sort out "good" from "evil" when those terms can only ever be relative...a fact that this show has always woven into its narrative in very stark contrast to all the black & white "good people"/"bad people" references made.
<<With a name like Abbadon and the line about owing him, I think it is clear which side of the dark/light he is on.>>
I'm with you on that one. There seems little doubt that Abaddon means ill toward the Island and the Losties in general. But I think there are more forces out there than Widmore who mean ill toward the Island and/or the Losties.
<<I would not rule out a deeper force of the dark side usurping Widmore's plans.>>
Me either...Widmore doesn't exactly seem like the subtle sort, while both Hawking and Abaddon have shown the ability to plant more oblique seeds in people's heads and manipulate the course of their lives. But, as always, I could be wrong! -
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Re: So...what IS Abaddon's deal, anyway?
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 4:51 PM
@ Sonya L : "...black and white is only the province of games and stories. I've long felt that it was a red herring trying to sort out "good" from "evil" when those terms can only ever be relative...a fact that this show has always woven into its narrative in very stark contrast to all the black & white "good people"/"bad people" references..."
_People_ are only good or bad, light or dark, in a situational and relative manner, sure. That is the whole point of free will and agency of choice, I think. People have the ability to choose from moment to moment and even the darkest of the dark can choose differently in a new moment, or visa versa, situationally. Whether people's choices are good or evil from their own perspective versus the perspective of another (example: are foreign soldiers present in another land "liberators" or Invaders"?) is, of course, relative.
By contrast, the presence of light and dark (good and evil) aspects to reality could still exist --in a sense as absolutes, just as the poles of a magnet exist, regardless of what we think of them or what choices we make with respect to them-- independent of whether people exercise their free will to make situational and relative choices this way or that way.
So, yes to people never being fixed and immutable as good or evil (because they have agency through free will to make new choices in every new moment) but I'd question whether the metaphysics of LOST excludes good and evil or light and dark as absolutes about which people must sometimes make choices. -
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Re: So...what IS Abaddon's deal, anyway?
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 7:14 PM@AlaskaSteven
But who decided that white=light=good and black=dark=evil? People did, and rather arbitrarily, I might add.
"Good" and "evil" are human inventions. Darkness is simply the absence of light and black and white are just colors based on the reflective properties of an object. Nothing more.
I'm of the opinion that the Island cares not a whit for these human definitions and cares only for its own well-being, based on its own standards and definitions which are as impenetrable to us one would expect of so alien a sentient entity. -
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Re: So...what IS Abaddon's deal, anyway?
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 7:54 PM@ Sonya L
The association of darkness with bad/evil and light with good might not be so much arbitrary as rooted in human origins and biology. We are diurnal animals --originally of the warm tropics-- highly dependent upon vision for sensing, not nocturnal or blind obligatory cave-critters and primarily chemosensory, tactile, users of sonar or whatever. Moreover, especially after the neolithic revolution we became more dependent upon the agriculture flowing from abundant sunlight. Famines followed the year without summer back when ash from volcanic eruptions blocked sunlight. Yes, though, however we arrived there our reality is internally constructed in the sense of the symbolic meaning we attach to externalities.
While good and evil are entirely human inventions this does not alter in any way the fact that there are ever so many phenomena in the universe --from the poles of magnets to spin of electrons to night and day-- which are connected yet have opposing sets of qualities.
That which I am suggesting is that while people may be on the side of good one moment and on the side of evil the next, depending on how they exercise free will in choice and both how they understand themselves and how others understand them in the sense of relative perspective (as with the foreign soldiers as liberators or invaders, depending), there may actually be some golden standard, some absolute measure, in this metaphysics against which all else is held and thus known. If the island itself is indeed a sentient entity (what an interesting thought!) then anything which furthers its continued existence might be interpreted or construed as "good" (at least by the sentient island itself, hereby dubbed Mini-Gaia) while any threat to Mini-Gaia's continued existence might be interpreted as "evil." Likewise, the actions of humans or particular humans themselves could be judged relative to that absolute measure.
If the island is not a sentient entity (and perhaps even if it is) then this does not, I think, preclude the possibility of there being a deeper fabric or more over-arching structure woven into the archetecture of the LOST metaphysics one pole of which could be taken as Ziggle (to move away from value-laden words) and the other pole of which could be taken as Zaggle.
Please consider Ziggle and Zaggle.
It strikes me that in the metaphysics of LOST it is not so much that all things and actions Ziggle (white/light/good, in one interpretation) are constructive or positive and all things and actions Zaggle (black/dark/evil in another interpretation) are unconstructive or negative (or visa versa, depending on relative perspective) as that an IMBALANCE between Ziggle and Zaggle is a threat to the cosmos, while a proper healthy balance between Ziggle and Zaggle promotes harmony. -
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Re: So...what IS Abaddon's deal, anyway?
Thu, May 15, 2008 - 11:17 AMpeople aren't "good" or "bad". those are terms we place on them to express our feelings towards them or their actions. the characters on lost, like all people, do things that are seen as good or bad by different people. it all depends on your perspective, and how well you can empathies (and not necessarily sympathies) with another persons motives.
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Re: So...what IS Abaddon's deal, anyway?
Tue, May 13, 2008 - 2:25 PMI've been assuming Widmore is a catspaw of Abaddon. Widmore probably thinks he is the big bad and egotistically represents and conducts himself that way in ordinary human affairs, yet is also probaly aware there is a wholly other level of Bad which would have him for breakfast if it wanted. Sort of like Zorc and the utterly evil anti-Life dark horror from beyond in "The Fifth Element." The question in my mind is whether Widmore leaps into the air when Abaddon says jump, or if Abaddon operates indepentently of Widmore and manipulates him from afar.
At first I figured Abaddon is also incarnate in or as a powerful figure in a branch of the US military/NSA/CIA who had his own massive budget, minions galore, and no congressional, executive, or judicial oversight. Now I am not so sure that a third party (e.g., covert US government agency) is playing at all, though it is odd someone official and well-funded/equipped would not become awfully curious about all these strange goings-on.
Seems like Richart Alpert spasmed when Lil'Locke took up the knife (while Abaddon is all about Locke going on walkabout with more knives than Imelda Marcos has shoes) because in the default branch of the possible timelines --an utterly disastrous branching, as far as Jacob is concerned-- Locke uses a knife in some way which results in the dark side winning the island and therefore the game. In order to change that default outcome, Jacob through Alpert must influence Locke to choose differently at a critical moment. Alpert may have known perfectly well Lil'Locke was indeed "the one" but reacted in the strongly negative manner deliberately to slap his hand and begin a long process of conditioning Lil'Locke away from wanting the knife, intending to manipulate him many times over the years to come. Meanwhile, Abaddon is metaphorically standing there in the shadows and saying stuff like "Feel the power of the dark side of the force, John. Let your anger and hatred grow. Pick up the knife!" [Meanwhile, back on the lost island of Dagobah, Alpert even lives modestly dressed in tattered old clothes out in the rather wet woods, like Yoda, and seems about equally as old, too!] ; )
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Abaddon as the Big Bad Evil
Tue, May 13, 2008 - 3:15 PMJust for reference, Abaddon is the Hebrew word for destruction.
In the Old Testament (and here I am quoting from Wikipedia, because I'm no Biblical scholar, so it may not be 100% accurate):
"...(Job 26:6; Proverbs 15:11), it comes to mean "place of destruction", or the realm of the dead, and is associated with Sheol. Abaddon is also one of the compartments of Gehenna.[1] By extension, it can mean an underworld abode of lost souls, or hell. In some legends, it is identified as a realm where the damned lie in fire and snow, one of the places in Hell that Moses visited. [2]
In Revelation 9:11, it is personified as Abaddon, "Angel of the Abyss",[1] rendered in Greek as Apollyon; and he is described as king of the locusts which rose at the sounding of the fifth trumpet."
To my way of thinking, in choosing that kind of name for a character, the writers are pretty much telegraphing their punches. -
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Re: Abaddon as the Big Bad Evil
Tue, May 13, 2008 - 8:23 PMHere's a link to Rev. 9 in Greek for those who want to read the Greek- hyperlinked for those who want to parse the verbs or decline the nouns. www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~fishe...bin/gnt
Here's a link to English of Rev. 9. bible.oremus.org/ I think the sense in Lost, and most times when we hear it, is this Christian personification of the Angel of Destruction or Death, basically.
Rev. 9:11 "They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon,* and in Greek he is called Apollyon."
Abaddon in Hebrew is simply the noun "destruction" or possibly an abstract participle "destroyer." The Hebrew root aleph-bet-dalet can be used to create a number verbs along the lines of "perish" "die" "be destroyed" "to put to death" (For those of you who care, BDB pp. 1-2 cover the root.
Apollyon in Greek is similar, a participle meaning "destroyer" from the Greek verb apollumi (and I used the online TLG to verify so I don't have a LSJ page) meaning "destroy" "kill" "slay.
(yes, I'm a graduate student. yes, I've studied Greek and Hebrew.)
As a "name" the author of Revelation probably thought Abaddon meant "The Destroyer" or "Causer to Perish." -
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Re: Abaddon as the Big Bad Evil
Tue, May 13, 2008 - 10:30 PMDouble post deleted~
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Re: Abaddon as the Big Bad Evil
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 4:19 AMRichard is to Ben/Locke as Abaddon is to Widmore?
Compared to the analysis you all are giving to Abaddon, I know this is (overly) simple, but I like the symmetry.
This leads to two questions in my mind: how old is Abaddon, and how many toes does he have? -
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Re: Abaddon as the Big Bad Evil
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 8:18 AMMy guess is that he's pretty effing old. I'd guess at least as old as the Black Rock, if not older.
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Re: Abaddon as the Big Bad Evil
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 4:13 PM@slinted
<< Richard is to Ben/Locke as Abaddon is to Widmore?>>
It could very well be...that would also make Abaddon into a sort of Darth Maul to Widmore's Emperor Palpatine, in the vernacular of Lindelof-favorite, Star Wars. -
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Re: Abaddon as the Big Bad Evil
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 11:48 PMI was more intrigued by your earlier comment, Sonya:
"...what if he's working with Ms. Hawking and Brother Campbell, and they're an as-yet-little-known third player in the Ben/Widmore conflict? Were that the case, then Abaddon could very well be infiltrating Widmore's organization for that group,"
I like it. Makes me want to take a stab at -
Interest Groups:
• Ms Hawking (Mrs De Groot?) + Brother Campbel + Abbadon = The Scientist, Dharma type interest... Goal: They want to use the island like a tool to achieve their ethically challenging "humanitarian" goals.
• Ben + Richard + The Others + Locke = They feel they are in the groove of the Island. They are the naturists. Goal: Protection. They want the Island to be safe from forces that would use it for personal gain and for the above-mentioned questionable, so-called "humanitarian" interests.
• Widmore = A selfish gent with some kind of family lineage claim to the island. A total Feudal Lord type... Goal: Ownership and control of the Island to serve his personal gain, his immortality or wealth or something viagra-like. Concerned for Penny, too.
• Sun's Dad= Hm.. In a way he is on Team Widmore, but both of these men are top-dog types, not team players, and only cooperate when it serves them. Also, the Island is not Sun's Dad's primary focus, more a side thing... Goal: Self-interest, wants to help Widmore in exchange for some island favors. Concerned for Sun, too.
• The Island = Deserves it's own bullet point. The Island's goal: Um.....
• Losties= Obviously some are with Ben, (Locke, stewardess, some kids...) some just want to go home, some just want to hang and be disease-free in the ocean breeze. -
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Re: Abaddon as the Big Bad Evil
Thu, May 15, 2008 - 9:39 AMHave we seen any real connection to Sun's dad and Widmore? -
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Re: Abaddon as the Big Bad Evil
Thu, May 15, 2008 - 4:56 PMNo, not that I know of!
I am totally going from my gut, conjecture, and mixed memories of other people's theories.
The seem to me to be very similar, can't you see them respecting each other and doming business with each other? Both all about being powerful and rich? With pretty daughters? -
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Re: Abaddon as the Big Bad Evil
Thu, May 15, 2008 - 5:41 PMYes, they are like another set of twins in a way (both dark, in this case -so who would their light opposites be?)
I've wondered if Sun's ultra-rich Korean mafia businessman dad Mr. Paik was sending the extremely valuable watch on Jin's wrist to Charles Widmore ...along with Jin. Recall that not only does Mr. Paik have daughter Sun and Charles Widmore have daughter Penelope, but Widmore has sought to get rid of Desmond. Since Jin did not turn out to be a biddable thug 100% loyal to Mr. Paik, perhaps Mr. Paik was sending Jin to Widmore for disposal. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Abaddon as the Big Bad Evil
Fri, May 16, 2008 - 7:45 AMMaybe Paik was sending the watch to Abaddon. The big A does seem to hang out in America more so than Widmore.
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Re: Abaddon as the Big Bad Evil
Fri, May 16, 2008 - 6:44 AMI feel the same way Joanna and can't wait for something concrete. Thanks for the poke in regards to the lostpedia link btw.
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Re: Abaddon as the Big Bad Evil
Fri, May 16, 2008 - 3:25 PM@Tony
There is according to Lostpedia: www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Mr._Paik
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Re: Abaddon as the Big Bad Evil
Thu, May 15, 2008 - 5:41 PM@joanna
I like it! Though I would tweak your "axes" just a little bit...
<<Ms Hawking (Mrs De Groot?) + Brother Campbel + Abbadon = The Scientist, Dharma type interest... Goal: They want to use the island like a tool to achieve their ethically challenging "humanitarian" goals.>>
Yaknow...Ms. Hawking struck me as a bit old to be Karen DeGroot, who would only be about 60 if she were a "doctoral candidate" (and based on the film footage of her) when the DHARMA Initiative started in 1970. Hawking looks to be in her 70s to me. I could of course, be wrong though, and it would be mighty interesting if I were.
But I don't know that their humanitarian goals are necessarily that ethically-challenged...they might just conflict with the Island's goals while still being 100% "humanitarian", if we take the Alvar Hanso portion of the Sri Lanka Video as canon (and believe that it's honest as well).
<<Ben + Richard + The Others + Locke = They feel they are in the groove of the Island. They are the naturists. Goal: Protection. They want the Island to be safe from forces that would use it for personal gain and for the above-mentioned questionable, so-called "humanitarian" interests.>>
Again, they serve the Island's interests, but at this point I don't think we have enough information to assume that the Island's interests and humanity's interests are in sync.
<<Widmore = A selfish gent with some kind of family lineage claim to the island. A total Feudal Lord type... Goal: Ownership and control of the Island to serve his personal gain, his immortality or wealth or something viagra-like. Concerned for Penny, too.>>
That's certainly the way he appears, but as we all know from almost 4 seasons of watching this show, appearances can be deceiving. He may very well have been cruel to Desmond and to Ben's man in the surveillance video out of motives we may find sympathetic in its ends even if we don't like his means.
<<Sun's Dad= Hm.. In a way he is on Team Widmore, but both of these men are top-dog types, not team players, and only cooperate when it serves them. Also, the Island is not Sun's Dad's primary focus, more a side thing... Goal: Self-interest, wants to help Widmore in exchange for some island favors. Concerned for Sun, too.>>
Well, there's certainly reason to think that Paik is at least in cahoots with Widmore, according to his page on Lostpedia (and Tony, you should take not here as well!) www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Mr._Paik
All we know about Widmore and Paik is that they're more than willing to use their own children—their emotions at the very least—as means to achieving their personal ends. Widmore's manipulated Desmond pretty heavily and ditto Paik with Jin. This is the one of your bullet points along with the Ben/Alpert/Locke/Others one I feel is closest to the truth.
<<The Island = Deserves it's own bullet point. The Island's goal: Um.....>>
It so does! I think I have it...
Step 1: Collect "special" people.
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit!
:-P
<<Losties= Obviously some are with Ben, (Locke, stewardess, some kids...) some just want to go home, some just want to hang and be disease-free in the ocean breeze.>>
Well, the Island clearly wants all the remaining survivors for SOMEthing, though. Otherwise they wouldn't have been on Oceanic 815, wouldn't have survived the crash, and wouldn't still be here walking and talking. But yeah, the ends of the beach camp denizens (both crash survivors and subsequent additions, like Juliet) seem to mainly involve surviving on this whacked-out Island and (in most of their cases) getting home. -
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Re: Abaddon as the Big Bad Evil
Fri, May 16, 2008 - 7:46 AMOy, Sonya, I think you are right! The Underpants Gnomes are behind it all! -
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Re: Abaddon as the Big Bad Evil
Fri, May 16, 2008 - 7:50 AMForgot to add that if Paik were a Big Player in the game of Widmore and Ben, then wouldn't Ben have taken Sun as quickly as he could? Not to kill her but to sway her to his side. He should have known that it wouldn't have been that hard. If he had files on everyone then he probably knew that she was going to try to escape her father and husband while in Australia. I think Paik is nothing but a cashcow for Widmore....and yet even so, I would think Ben would have tried to make Sun into a Cindy. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Abaddon as the Big Bad Evil
Fri, May 16, 2008 - 9:12 AM"Maybe Paik was sending the watch to Abaddon. The big A does seem to hang out in America more so than Widmore"
With ref to the Madonna song, to me Widmore seems much more a material girl liv'in in a material world than does the Big A.
Paik and Widmore are both all about accessories such as yachts, big houses, expensive whiskey, watches, and other creature comforts and/or status symbols for conspicuously showing off to others as tokens of power in a pecking order and demonstrating o themselves what bigshots they are relative to ordinary folk. By scary contrast, Big A is utterly covert and just wants Clair's firstborn child and to suck peoples souls out of their mouths, or somesuch. Big A also appears to have virtually unlimited funds, as if he has access to a covert ops government source or maybe Satan's credit card.
"if Paik were a Big Player in the game of Widmore and Ben, then wouldn't Ben have taken Sun as quickly as he could? Not to kill her but to sway her to his side...I think Paik is nothing but a cashcow for Widmore....and yet even so, I would think Ben would have tried to make Sun into a Cindy."
Ben receives his major orders from Jacob, and Jacob's ways are inscrutable. While Ben needs some sort of portal or device to jump through time and space, my sense is Jacob hovers interdimensionally all on his own, though discorporally. If Jacob wanted Sun left alone because of what he knew about her from shifting through the default timeline and various potential branching timeflows, then I suspect Ben would leave Sun be.
Very good point about Paik maybe not being such a Big Player as had been thought, bolstered by the new evidence last night: if Sun received a settlement from Oceanic "substantial" enough to allow her to take a controlling interest in Paik's company, then Paik was not as rich as I figured previously. Not Widmore rich, by a long shot. Maybe not even Hurley rich, at least in terms of available cash flow. Indeed, as Supreme Mugwump speculates Paik could just be a simpleton thug and cash-cow vassal of his higher-up feudal mafia crime lord, sending tribute.
The question is to whom the watch was being sent and if it really was the watch being sent or the watch-bearer? If it really was the watch being sent, then I'd guess it was to Widmore (since he might actually have his ego stroked and be appeased by such a bauble) even if Paik's request to Widmore is also to dispose of Jin for him via a contrived accident of some sort. If, however, that which was really being sent was a sacrifice --a blood sacrifice of Jin, himself-- then perhaps Jin was being sent to Abaddon.
A disposal-by-murder is not the same as a sacrifice inasmuch as a sacrifice is consecrated --so becoming sacred in some measure or respect-- and is offered up to some deity or higher end ...versus a casual disposal of discarded waste, as via brushing crumbs off one's sleeve or flushing a toilet.
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