moving the island...

topic posted Sun, May 11, 2008 - 9:48 AM by  Supreme Mugwump
physically move it?

or to another time?
  • Re: moving the island...

    Sun, May 11, 2008 - 10:00 AM
    God and the LOST writers only know!
    • Re: moving the island...

      Sun, May 11, 2008 - 10:08 AM
      Seems like the Island has a yet-to-be-perfected mechanism for transporting things thru time and space (the polar bear being found on the archeology site in Africa, Ben in an Anorak in the middle east. asking for the date..)

      I guess the Island can use it's mechanism to transport itself thru time and/or space.... and really piss off WIdmore!
  • Re: moving the island...

    Mon, May 12, 2008 - 1:59 PM
    In another thread I commented that it might be a bit disappointing if the island turns out to be like Turtle Island in the Iroquis creation myth, with all the reef, dirt, rocks, and coconut trees encrusted in an established living ecology atop a genuinely vast and massive alien spacecraft. Seems unlikely to me such a mechanism will be used (_too_ deus ex machina). The LOST writers are so good, though, that they might pull off even as huge a reach as this would be. Particularly given the primal elements in that particular creation myth. I'll be surprized, though, if LOST turns out to have any aliens in it, at least directly. Seems like the time travel obviates the need for aliens in explaining highly advanced tech as it could have been transported from the far future into the distant past such that artifacts of ancient lost human civilizations could have stemmed in their inception from the far future.

    The Iroquois creation myth begins: "Long before the world was created there was an island, floating in the sky, upon which the Sky People lived. They lived quietly and happily. No one ever died or was born or experienced sadness. However one day one of the Sky Women realized she was going to give birth to twins. She told her husband, who flew into a rage. In the center of the island there was a tree which gave light to the entire island since the sun hadn't been created yet. He tore up this tree, creating a huge hole in the middle of the island. Curiously, the woman peered into the hole. Far below she could see the waters that covered the earth. At that moment her husband pushed her. She fell through the hole, tumbling towards the waters below...."

    A sketch of Turtle Island and rest of one version of that myth are at
    www.cs.williams.edu/~lindsey...s_12.html

    How ironic if later on it turns out that not only was partial inspiration and some nuts and bolts of the United States Constitution borrowed in part from the Iroquis (via Benjamin Franklin) but also part of the LOST mythos. Unlikely, though, IMHO.
  • Re: moving the island...

    Mon, May 12, 2008 - 2:19 PM
    This completely threw me, I have to admit. And I love it all the more for that!

    It certainly sounds like the Island i expecting Keamy & Krew to be repulsed or killed, and that by extension, it doesn't want Widmore (or maybe just "anybody from the outside world") to be able to find it again.

    Is it going to move in space? Time? Both?

    My inclination based on my own theories about how time works in the Lostiverse is that this is intended to be a move in space so that anyone trying to find the Island again would have to search the entire globe in order to do so. After all, a move in time doesn't make the Island not exist in this time unless it jumps into the future (at which point it will exist again in space anyway).

    Also, if the Island can be moved, has it been moved before, and under what circumstances? This possibility throws a lot of possible theories out the window...only to replace them with more, of course. ;-)
    • Re: moving the island...

      Mon, May 12, 2008 - 7:10 PM
      Atlantis!

      ;)
      • Re: moving the island...

        Mon, May 12, 2008 - 7:10 PM
        Or better - Brigadoon!
        • Re: moving the island...

          Mon, May 12, 2008 - 10:18 PM
          Avalon
          • Re: moving the island...

            Mon, May 12, 2008 - 11:20 PM

            Amber
            • Re: moving the island...

              Tue, May 13, 2008 - 4:06 AM
              Wow, the Turtle Island story certainly has its similarities to our LOST Island. quite interesrting. As far as the Island moving in time or space: I think perhaps both. They have already introduced the time travel element to the viewers, so I would think that would continue to play a part. Has the Island been moved before? I say absolutely. Why else would it even be suggested...somehow it happened before (either on purpose or by accident). I am extremely curious to see how this all plays out.
              • Re: moving the island...

                Tue, May 13, 2008 - 10:10 AM
                Yes, the Iroqois' Turtle Island mythos does indeed have some strands which resonate with LOST, such as "...The Sky Woman gave birth to twin sons. She named one Sapling. He grew to be kind and gentle. She named the other Flint and his heart was as cold as his name. They grew quickly and began filling the earth with their creations." I think the competitive interactions between light and dark twin pairings will turn out to be a key element in the metaphysics of whatever is going on.

                A question, though: is it the island itself which has specific latitude-and-longitude coordinated location inside time-space normal ...or only the portal(s) for access to and from the island?

                That is, perhaps the island itself exists displaced in a dimension close but separate from that of Earth-normal and it is the tear or opening between the two which has a specific latitude and longitude and must be approached or exited on an exact trajectory in order to successfully pass through. If so, then the island itself could stay put where-ever and when-ever it is if just the portal via which it is accessed is moved. The ecology of the island would sure remain much more content if all those coconut trees and critters did not suddenly find themselves dry as a bone in the Tunesian desert or freezing in the Arctic icefields.

                If the island is physically moved to another location, then isn't there a spot in the Atlantic (the Bermuda Triangle nexus) analogous to the Pacific mystery spot?

                Oh! It just struck me: another male and female couple to field as potential candidates in the Adam & Eve sweepstakes could be famous lost-at-sea solo-pilot aviator Amelia Earhart and famous lost-at-sea solo-sailor Donald Crowhurst. ; )

                Donald Crowhurst, by the way, is who came to my mind as Desmond's story came out bit by bit. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Crowhurst
          • Re: moving the island...

            Tue, May 13, 2008 - 12:08 PM
            Well, I think it's obvious, given the sheer, staggering number of antecedents, that the Lost writers aren't going to just clone any particular one of them. The most direct antecedent to me is Mu/Lemuria, given that it was at least supposed to be in the Pacific about where our Island is and our Island clearly had an ancient, advanced civilization on it with technologies and magicks beyond even those of modern humanity. ;-)

            But they're clearly pulling characteristics from other famous lost/hidden Islands such as Avalon, Brigadoon, Atlantis, the island from The Tempest, the Forbidden Planet, Verne's Mysterious Island, and more to distill into our healing, time-warping, fate-manipulating, sentient "Lost" Island. :-)
  • Re: moving the island...

    Fri, May 16, 2008 - 12:58 PM

    So, does it seem Ben is sending John Locke down into the Orchid station Time-Tunnel control room to flip whatever switch it is which sets in motion "moving" the island? As he steps forward from instructing Locke in the lore of elevator switch activation Ben must realize he may be tied up for awhile by other pressing business, such as being whacked in the head by Keamy's gun.

    I wonder if Ben realizes Richard and his posse of crusty, feral, bearded Others (they reminded me of Ewoks the way they popped up all dressed in raggedy earth-tones from the forest, encircling the heroes) are en route?
    • Re: moving the island...

      Fri, May 16, 2008 - 1:03 PM
      I think Ben knows for sure they are coming for him. That is who he signaled with the mirror. I bet he told them he was going to The Orchid station.

      I wonder if the island is going to get moved to some place cold? Maybe that is why Ben had a Parka on when he made the jump into the desert.
      • Re: moving the island...

        Fri, May 16, 2008 - 1:37 PM
        > I wonder if the island is going to get moved to some place cold? Maybe that is why Ben had a Parka on when he made the jump into the desert.

        I really doubt it, although it would alleviate the cast's island fever.
    • Re: moving the island...

      Fri, May 16, 2008 - 1:34 PM
      > So, does it seem Ben is sending John Locke down into the Orchid station Time-Tunnel control room to flip whatever switch it is which sets in motion "moving" the island?

      Seem? That's exactly what he's doing. I really didn't think there was any question.

      > I wonder if Ben realizes Richard and his posse of crusty, feral, bearded Others (they reminded me of Ewoks the way they popped up all dressed in raggedy earth-tones from the forest, encircling the heroes) are en route?

      Who do you think Ben was signaling with the mirror? Of course he knows. As he said to John, "I always have a plan."
      • Re: moving the island...

        Fri, May 16, 2008 - 3:09 PM
        @bundt-
        "Seem? That's exactly what he's doing. I really didn't think there was any question."

        Well, perhaps I am just being dense --neither the first nor last time, fer sure-- but I still wonder about these points. For these reasons:

        If moving the island is so fraught with peril then it seems uncertain to me to be as simple a matter as flipping a switch. There may be dials to turn and power settings to adjust such that one ends up in the Atlantic Ocean a few moments after the shift instead of in the Tunesian desert circa 4,000 BCE. Or in the arctic several hundred thousand years in the future. This is why I wonder if Ben is sending Locke to move the island or whether Ben still figures on being the one to do it himself, after he has dealt with Keamy & Company. So then why would Ben give Locke those instructions sending him down into the Orchid station? To keep Locke and Hurley safe and have them already where he wants them when he is ready for powering up Prof. Peabody's Wayback Machine and actually moving the island. If, indeed, Ben intends for Locke to move the island and it is just a simple matter of flipping a switch down inside the Orchid station, then why didn't Ben's instructions to Locke conclude with a phrase like "When the elevator stops, walk forward past two doorways and enter the third door you come to; you will see a big red button in the middle of the room: press it." That Ben tells Locke how to enter the station but gives him no instructions beyond this raises the doubt in my mind as to whether Ben intends Locke to actually be the one to move the island, though Ben could be reasoning sending them down in there could provide some insurance, too; back up --perhaps via Jacob telling Locke & Hurley what to do-- if he (Ben) perishes before returning.

        As for the question, "Who do you think Ben was signaling with the mirror? Of course he knows. As he said to John, 'I always have a plan,'" ...that which is making wonder about this aspect is the timing and placement of people. Ben signals with the mirror when they are down far below a substantial crag. Climbing that crag (even if there is a stairway with a railing to grip all the way up to the top) would take quite awhile, especially going through jungle foliage, and especially since they can move no faster than Hurley. Some stretches are practically vertical. So, this means whomever was flashing back in acknowledgement from up above was doing so hours before Ben, Locke, and Hurley arrived huffing, puffing, sweaty, and soiled up top.

        If Richard Alpert & his Ewok Army were already there at the Orchid station entrance, flashing a mirror back down to Ben, then whyever would they all leave the place unguarded when they went to intercept Keamy? If they heard (and saw? did the helicopter have any lights on when it flew over the beach?) a helicopter come in from out over the ocean and land only five kilometers from their position then it seems like they'd have established guards around the Orchid station entrance (Alpert is a traveller, like Ben, so he must know where the Time Tunnel is located). Helicopters are very noisy and the pilot, Frank Lapidus, must have had to turn on some floodlamps to find a clearing to land in. Have the Ewoks no sentries on duty? Seems unlikely. Moreover, even if General Alpert did lead his Ewok Army on a charge through the jungle to do battle with the helicopter without leaving any guards at the Orchid station entrance (and he seemed to have plenty of Ewoks to spare for leaving guards behind) then how come the jungle-crafty Ewoks did not encounter Keamy & Company en route and have their battle half-way between the Orchid station entrance and the helicopter's landing site? Ben, Locke, and Hurley arrived at the Orchid station entrance unalarmed by shots having been fired (rifle shots are audible for miles and five kilometers is not all that far). Unless Richard Alpert signaled Ben back, left some guards behind, and then his bunch completely missed Keamy & Company (who sneaked up on the guards and slit their throats or some other quite way of taking them out) then it seems unlikely Richard and that big bunch were signaling back.

        Unless, of course, I've made some false assumption, such as thinking the Orchid station entrance is way up on that clifftop somewhere when it is located somewhere else entirely. If Ben was leading Locke and Hurley somewhere else then it could have been Richard up there with a mirror signaling back, with his crew headed down to the same place via a completely different route. Somehow, though, I have the impression the Orchid station entrance is located way up there behind where the mirror flash reply was coming. High ground is more defensible, maybe this is why I've assumed it is up there, plus the elevator shaft extends down from the greenhouses -somehow it is more aesthetically appealing to think of the Time Tunnel lab or whatever other source of the Casimir Effect as being grandly embedded inside this huge jutting stone mountain than for it to be ignobly buried down below some flatlands, like the Swan (Hatch). Think of the magnificent ocean views, if the elevator extends down to an embedded laboratory complex which connects to the cliff-face itself at points!

        • Re: moving the island...

          Fri, May 16, 2008 - 3:25 PM
          > If Richard Alpert & his Ewok Army were already there at the Orchid station entrance, flashing a mirror back down to Ben, then whyever would they all leave the place unguarded when they went to intercept Keamy?

          What makes you think they were at the Orchid station? What makes you think the Orchid is up on the ridge? These are bad assumptions.

          In the Season 3 finale Ben told Richard to lead the Others to "the Temple." In "Meet Kevin Johnson" this season, Ben gives Alex a map and sends her to "the Temple." I've seen nothing that would equate "the Temple" with the Orchid Station. In fact, on the map Ben gave Alex, the Temple is shown with a Dharma logo, which would indicate that it's a completely separate station from the Orchid.

          When I saw Richard step out of the jungle in front of Sayid and Kate, the only conclusion I could make is that the Others were signaled by Ben and that they were making their way from the Temple to the Orchid with the intention of saving the Island and possibly Ben from Keamy.

          Can they? Sure. We've seen that they can move with a great deal of speed when they want and they all seem to have guns and know how to use them. I'll be interested to see how this all plays out in the finale.
          • Re: moving the island...

            Fri, May 16, 2008 - 4:17 PM

            >In the Season 3 finale Ben told Richard to lead the Others to "the Temple." In "Meet Kevin Johnson" this season, Ben gives Alex a map and sends her to "the Temple."<

            Good point; perhaps the Temple is located up atop the jutting crag. That would be dramatic!

            I'll be very interested to see if it is Locke, Ben, or someone else altogether who initiates whatever perilous mechanism it is that moves the island -since it does seem as if this fateful event will occur, perhaps at the climax of this season's finale.
            • Re: moving the island...

              Fri, May 16, 2008 - 4:23 PM
              > since it does seem as if this fateful event will occur, perhaps at the climax of this season's finale

              This I agree with.
              • Re: moving the island...

                Fri, May 16, 2008 - 11:01 PM
                I think that Ben is a brilliant mafah immune to death somehow with a superhuman manipulation gene... he will totally pull this off.
                • Re: moving the island...

                  Fri, May 16, 2008 - 11:41 PM
                  As for moving the island, it may not be a dramatic move. Considering that one must approach by exact coordinates to find the island, moving the island even the slightest amount could skew the angle of approach enough that it could be hidden.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: moving the island...

                    Sat, May 17, 2008 - 8:12 AM
                    two inches to the left!
                    • leo
                      leo
                      offline 9

                      Re: moving the island...

                      Sat, May 17, 2008 - 12:30 PM
                      perhaps the island has moved before and that is how the black rock ended up in the jungle. one second, they were sailing along the open seas, and next second, BAM! they're on an island.
                      • Re: moving the island...

                        Sat, May 17, 2008 - 2:11 PM
                        Good idea - could be!

                        the only other explanation i've heard is the electromagnetic force was magnetized by the minerals the boat was carrying... the boat got pulled onto the island, burrowing thru the island's protective shield, at exactly the coordinates now used today as the one available route in and out.
                      • Re: moving the island...

                        Sat, May 17, 2008 - 4:29 PM
                        That could explain Polar Bears being on the island. And any other way to get exotic animals on the island. I think moving the island will change the bearing (305) and send them somewhere either in the artic or the dessert since we know that those places are correlated to the past, from what we know now....? Who knows?
                        • Re: moving the island...

                          Sun, May 18, 2008 - 8:38 AM
                          i think they are going to do a dimensional shift, that would explain multiple copies of each person, say they wanted perfect people for the island, in one dimension i am a bad person but in another i am perfest for the task at hand.....we havnt seen anyone age on the island except for mebe ben, say once on the island you live forever like richard alpert......
                          • Re: moving the island...

                            Sun, May 18, 2008 - 2:27 PM

                            >i think they are going to do a dimensional shift, that would explain multiple copies of each person<

                            Yes, the various characters have aged (entropy holds still for no one, except perhaps Richard Alpert) but Rick's point is still well-taken if the subsequent VERSIONS of each character are each aging uniformly, at the same standard rate, from the moment the timeline branches. If moving the island involves actualizing a new timeline (or separate brane) as manifest and fully realized as tangible within the universe (or multiverse) then a new set of identical individuals would begin to diverge in experience from the moment of the shift. This could explain quite a bit. For example, if an alternate reality version of a character (say, Charlie) who survived in one timeline is able to shift dimensions and appear in another dimension (where he has already died) then the visitor-Charlie could converse with Hurley and smack him before disappearing again.

                            Given the whole yin-yang motif going on in LOST plus the flipped-out reaction of the scientists in the Orchid station video when two Bunny 15's appeared (panicked shouts of "Do not let them touch each other!"), taken together those tidbits of evidence suggest to me the notion of matter and antimatter. An antimatter Charlie appearing within the other (positive matter) reality would not be a problem if he is already dead there because he could not come into contact with his (positive) matter self. In standard comic book metaphysics, matter and antimatter versions of the same twinned entity are supposed to cause mutual annihilation if brought together into physical contact.

                            A potential fly in this theoretical ointment is that Charlie died in the Yang/positive/light/Ziggle brane before the island was moved. If a new timeline and hence new version of Charlie is created by moving the island, then this momentous event comes too late to create a version of him which survives his Yang/positive/light/Ziggle death in the Looking Glass ...unless, time-travel is possible not only within the same dimension but across dimensions and another branch of the timeline was created when Keymaster Desmond turned the sky purple and summoned Gozer. Er, I mean, another timeline. If a pre-existing Yin/negative/dark/Zaggle version of Charlie can slip not only across dimensions via Jacob's portal (for God Loves You --and Charlie, too-- As He Loved Jacob) but also through time, then Yang-Charlie could die in the Looking Glass yet still live to fight another day (in fact, to fight again on any day -as long as Yin-Charlie does not come into direct contact with his Yang-Charlie self).

                            Maybe moving the island and the time-travel/geographical-jump portal are completely independent of a deeper structure. Maybe --as bedrock of that deeper structure-- there is simply a Yin-pole version and Yang-pole version of everything and everyone, period. Shifting dimensions might equate to shifting from the Yang phase of the one reality within a brane into the Yin-phase of that same reality (or visa versa).

                            If the LOSTiverse is fundamentally a Yin-Yang phased reality, then this need not preclude creating new LOSTbranes by each new branching of the timelines within an infinitude of branes held by a multiverse. If so, then the notion of fate holds as valid in the sense that everything which could happen has --in a sense-- already always happened/been happening/will happen ...yet the notion of exercising free will via independent and meaningful individual choice also is operative since which reality a character "exists" within is determined by his or her finite choices within an infinite array of options. Wait a sec while I take off my shoes, please, so as to be able to use my toes as well as fingers in counting to check if that wildly comic-SciFi speculation adds up alright.

                            Oops! I think I just LOST my brane again!
                            • Re: moving the island...

                              Mon, May 19, 2008 - 10:43 AM
                              i'm not buying the whole other dimension thing. i think the island is somehow able to manifest someones image, but it's not really them. people, form another dimension or not, tend to act in their own best interest. the apparitions of dead loved ones seem to act in benefit of the island, not in their own best interest or of their "loved ones" . i can't say if they're ghosts or zombies or what, but what is sure is that the island is somehow controlling (or at least influencing) them.

Recent topics in "LOST - ABC TV"