Discussion: Season 5, Ep 7, The Life & Death of Jeremy Bentham

topic posted Wed, February 25, 2009 - 6:06 PM by 
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  • Wow....

    Completely disturbing, yet satisfyingly so~

    :)
    • It should just be a mantra; never trust Ben.
      • Yeah I have to admit I did not see that coming. They will definitely have to explain that really soon.
        • I wasn't sure if Locke was really dead or not (I thought there was a possibility he was under the medusa spider venom) but one thing I did know was that Ben was behind it somehow and I figured he tricked Locke in some way or other.
          How many times does Locke need to be tricked to get that he should never listen to Ben?
          • If Locke was going to hang himself anyways what was the point of Ben talking him out of it then killing him?
            • Because he needed to get some info from him first, like Mrs. Hawking's name. Also finding out that Jin was alive was pretty handy for him as well.
              • Yes, but was he specifically looking for that info (Mrs. Hawking's name/location) or did the mention of her name change his plan? I mean, would he have killed John regardless or was that a change of plan because of her?

                On other topics, the marshal lady told John that the pilot and some lady took one of the outriggers. Surely that's Sun and Frank and surely that's their outrigger the Sawyer team found on the beach and took. Those shooting at them must be from the other plane survivors (Caesar are folks) (ok, maybe not "must be", I'm just guessing here).

                Also, another parallel: someone among the crash survivors who "wasn't on the plane".

                I wonder if either Ben or Widmore is a "good guy".
                • Maybe Ben didn't plan to kill him right then and there but I'm thinking he had a plan to one way or another. He sees John as being in his way and he was sure John had some sort of info from Richard that could help him.

                  I was thinking it must have been Sun that took the canoe with Frank. The Marshall said there were originally three of them so that left two behind. I agree that it must of been one of those two that the Losties found and took later and it was probably Ceasar and those guys shooting at them (you were guessing but I agree that it is a good guess).
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Caesar seems like a lot more than some random plane passenger. I think he might be working for Widmore?
                    • Something is definitely up with him. I also still want to know about the Marshall. What did she have Sayid in custody for? Was she a real Marshall or was she hired by either Widmore or Ben to get Sayid on that plane?


                      And have the passengers who disappeared on the plane gone to a different time than the passengers who crash landed in the plane? It seemed like when Jin pulled up in the van that they (Jack, Hugo, Kate) were in the time of the DHARMA folks but the crash landers where in the time after the DHARMA folks. If so, why did Sun not disappear with them? Does this mean she and Jin are trapped in different times? That sucks.
                      • B
                        B
                        offline 219
                        Well we know Locke madeit back to the Island and appears to not be as dead as Ben would have hoped for. OR was this his plan all along?
                        • The Good, The Ben and the Ugly - " . . . my aim is true"

                          This shows throws so many angles at you it is hard to tell.

                          Abbaddon getting shot - well I guess he ain't as "dark" and bad ass as we thought or . . .

                          But for Ben - When he heard the news of Jin being alive - how does him being alive change Ben's initial plan - one where Locke doesn't get all choked up.

                          1). Jin being alive means that _____________________________ <insert idea>

                          a). It is going to be harder to get Sun back because after Locke and Jin had words, Locke promising to not bring Sun back, Ben knowing that Locke was a man of his word and a man with soul conviction, it would be nearly impossible to convince him to at least encourage Sun to return to the island. So whatever Ben's plan is, he knew he would have to get as many of the Original Crew as possible.

                          Does Jin being alive change any of the physics of the island? Does he represent something we are not seeing yet?

                          If what made Ben kill Locke was the location angle of Hawkings, then let's explore that. We know that the relationship with Hawkings and Ben is one of function, not trust. But it would seem that Ben with all his "outside world" connections – the location of Hawkings would be an easy find with a little investigation. I don't think the "Lamp Post" is a mystery to either Widmore or Ben, so neither would be Hawkings, that is unless she herself moves around from time to time and finding her is another matter.

                          Maybe Ben is just now finding out how much Widmore really knows, and how closer Widmore is to achieving his goal. For some reason I think of Backgammon again and how you having to move all your pieces around from side of the board to other – there are different strategies to this; there is the aggressive ploy of attack and push with its sub-plots and then there is the passive, defensive slow tactics of stack and block with its many digressions. Maybe Widmore's return has been a slow methodical approach at re-gaining or over-throwing the island hegemony.

                          Maybe Ben thought in that moment that is might be easy to maneuver with John dead. After hearing the news, and seeing John in this complicated state – that John might bee too much of a variable.

                          Maybe there is quality within the way you die. Maybe suicide cannot happen anyway (Remember Michael's experience with it). So maybe a murder, homicide, was the only way to insure the proper type of return possible.

                          Did Ben know that the island would bring John back to life and that the death was only a matter of just getting the job done, that meaning it was only a temporary kind of death anyway? Who knows right now but one thing is for certain – Ben will surely say he knew and that the only thing that matters is that, "John your alive – and they all came back just like you planned" – and Locke once again will, hopefully not, be confused.

                          _____________________________________________________________________________
                          The Camera in the desert is a new item, yes or no? I think No. Widmore called it "The Exit" Widmore would not have needed Charlotte to find it, because he, himself, exited to that spot. Unless the exit was different back then. Charlotte might have stumble upon the remains the polar bear and worked herself backward into the equation and found Widmore. That story remains untold.

                          So if I had to wrap this up and put it in a nutshell I would say:

                          Widmore is an older "islander" – blue blood so to speak – and
                          Ben is the nevue "islander" – new blood

                          Both have aims that are true - respectively but
                          Both have misinterpreted the text or the message, or maybe they haven't we will see.

                          If the truth finds can a way of surfacing, then the fact is that both men, doesn't matter how, were pushed, forced to leave the island. So there must be some truth to that. Things have a way of working out in the show, so maybe the organizing theme is that.

                          ______________________________________________________________________________

                          So Widmore when he was young, saw John Locke on the island, and then witnessed his disappearance. When Widmore was pushed off the island into the real world back in that timeline, after he got back on his feet and found his bearings, he started looking for John Locke and when he found him he most likely got involved in his life. At what point he became "truly" involved remains to be seen. We know the "walkabout" was one time, but how many others?

                          ______________________________________________________________________________

                          It is possible that Alpert didn't harness the ability to do the type of traveling to and from the island, in any form, until after his run in with Locke (when Locke disappears before his eyes).

                          It is possible that this ability even took place after Widmore's departure as well. So Locke had two people in his corner, or watching him from early on. Both Alpert and Widmore.

                          It is possible that Widmore's job was to go back into the real world and always herd everyone towards the island that needed to be there. Like in basketball he is the center. His job was to rebound the ball and put in back in the basket. In the case, catch the people that ricocheted off, back to the island. Because unlike balls which bounce according to the physics of air pressure, humans bounce according to emotion, a much more different if not difficult (meta)physics to deal with.

                          So if Widmore is a controller of sorts, a center as I put it. Then what is Hawkings, The Shooting Guard. The on-court play caller?

                          As I work thru the basketball analogy I see Alpert as the guard because he can penetrate all aspects of the defensive and put the ball into the right hands of the other play makers. I see Hawkings as a power forward. Her "Posting" up ability sets up Widmore in the lane. That's is all for the sports angle I'll return with a deeper take later.

                          So if Widmore or Alpert never see Locke on that bright shiny day in the field at that confiscated base camp then does either go looking for him on the outside? Seems like a loop to me.
                      • Ok, so we know Locke did not meet with Sun off-Island (according to the conversation he and Ben had). And Locke and Ben are the only two people who know that Ben killed Keamy and detonated the freighter. So why did Sun blame Ben for Jin's supposed death? Why would she ever make that assumption?
                        • You know Bundt, I have wondered about that ever since Sun confronted her dad and said there were two people responsible for Jin's death. I figured then she was blaming Ben but I couldn't figure out how she would know to blame him.
                          • Widmore told her. Good question.

                            Unless she has "other" info we've not been privvy to view.
                            • > Widmore told her. Good question

                              No, I'm pretty sure she blamed Ben before she ever spoke to Widmore. The only reason she went to see Widmore was because she wanted his help finding Ben.
                              • Didn't Michael tell Sun about the detonator and stuff, and that he was working for Ben, when she saw the room with the explosives on the freighter?
                                • > Didn't Michael tell Sun about the detonator and stuff, and that he was working for Ben, when she saw the room with the explosives on the freighter?

                                  That may be true, but Michael would have told her that the explosives belonged to Keamy, because they were his. And even if Michael understood the significance of the pulse monitor on Keamy's arm, then he'd know that killing Keamy set off the C4. But they still would have no idea who killed Keamy so many miles away on the Island. We thought for a while that Richard had killed Keamy in the jungle, after all. She should have no idea how Keamy died, nor any idea how the explosives were set off.

                                  I think the writers made a mistake.
                                  • I am sure they know now and are constructing a way to fix it :)

                                    thanks
                                    • How many mistakes do you think the writers made that they then turned into "storyline"

                                      Casting Walt was one I can think of. When you cast a young person you know they can grow up on you real fast so how do you adjust for that.

                                      It is like shooting a car commercial. Wet the street - because your re-shoot might have to be on a rainy day so go ahead and plan for it ahead of time.

                                      I think Walt might have been the thing that got the writers looking in the direction of time-space movement.
                                      • B
                                        B
                                        offline 219
                                        I almost believe the story changed after season 1 and 2 and what we are seeing today was not part of the vision of the show.
                                        I am glad they have done what we now see.
                                        • Having just seen "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham" on tape and read over the great insightful posts in this thread, here are a few comments and questions to add to the mix.

                                          Yes, it has confused me as well not only how Sun linked Ben with Jin's supposed death on the exploding freighter, but also why she would go murderously ballistic and be tracking him down to kill him in revenge. This does not seem like the gentle cultivator-of-gardens Sun we know from the island, especially now that she has Jin's baby to raise single-handedly, placing herself at risk via engaging in dangerously nefarious doings with Charles Widmore and Ben.

                                          Interesting that Ben fooled Charles Widmore into moving the island after Widmore protected it for more than three decades, if Widmore really was protecting the island. Of Ben and Widmore, Widmore seems much more the one of the two of them intent on using the island for some personal power or gain in the outside world. Ben personally seems essentially disinterested in the world outside the island, living very simply and eschewing even the creature comforts of Tom "Mr. Friendly" let alone the material extravagance of Charles Widmore.

                                          In the "Ben - Good or Bad" thread I made my point about Ben as a Judas Iscariot figure in LOST's passion play. Suicide is a big no-no in Catholicism, if I understand correctly. Can the Jewish kids please comment on how suicide is viewed in Judaism? It is noteworthy that while Charlie, John, and Michael (were there others?) set out to die as willing sacrifices in saving others, none did (or could, for one reason or other, when they tried) commit suicide. They were all offed by others.

                                          Ben may understand something about the nature of the relationship between human mass and (spirit) energy vis a vis the action of the island such that he knows perfectly well John must die and cannot kill himself (as via hanging) ...so Ben does the offing of John (which, looking at Ben's face during the strangulation, seems a very emotionally difficult deed for him) as the faithful Judas doing that which he knows he must, regardless of the cost to himself. It may also be Ben knows perfectly well John's mass will be reunited with his energy on the island; Ben does say "I'll miss you, John. I really will" -not "Ha! Finally I have killed you for once and for all such that you are out of my way, done, finished, gone forevermore! Muhahahaha!" -so Ben may anticipate both a reunion with John ...and John perhaps never believing or understand why Ben strangled him to death.

                                          Interesting that John reappeared standing in water and was initially referred to in hushed and reverent tones by the Ajiries, acknowledging there is something mystical about this man who appears from nowhere. In this John Locke has a very iconic John the Baptist flavor. Wiki sayeth that John the Baptist "...was a mission preacher and a major religious figure who led a movement of baptism at the Jordan River in expectation of a divine apocalypse that would restore occupied Israel. John followed the example of previous Hebrew prophets, living austerely, challenging sinful rulers, calling for repentance, and promising God's justice. Some scholars maintain that he was influenced by the Essenes, who were semi-ascetic, expected an apocalypse, and had rituals similar to baptism. John's baptism was a purification rite for repentant sinners, performed in "living water" (in this case a running river) in accord with Jewish custom. John anticipated a messianic figure who would be greater than John himself. Jesus, the central figure of Christianity, was among those whom John baptized. Jesus apparently was a follower of John. Herod Antipas saw John as a threat and had him executed. Jesus' own ministry followed John's, and some of Jesus' early followers had previously been followers of John. John, like Jesus, preached at a time of political, social, and religious conflict." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_the_Baptist ...Hmmm, "in expectation of a divine apocalypse that would restore occupied [Island]" eh?

                                          ...so, if I am wrong about Ben acting selflessly as a Judas Iscariot figure, and Ben is actually as venal and self-serving as Charles Widmore appears to be, then perhaps Ben is actually a Herod Antipas figure, -but I do not think so.

                                          Charles Widmore's colleague Matthew Abbadon being splattered all over the trunk was sure a surprise! I do not think he was an incarnation of pure evil, though (like that dread force in one of my favorite films, The Fifth Element). Rather, my guess is that Abaddon connects Eloise Hawking and Charles Widmore with the covert military agencies of the US government. Abaddon reeks of CIA-NSA-Culper Ring. How do Charles Widmore and ancient DHARMA artifact Eloise Hawking manage to get away with carrying on as they do without being detected and swarmed by US government agents in black ninja tactical gear? Because they are connected and have been since at least Jughead days back in the early 1950's if not long before. Abaddon was that connection most recently, I speculate, but now Abaddon is terminated there should be some thrashing about as the covert agencies attempt to redefine their relationship with Widmore and the remnants of DHARMA. I am really looking forward to Capt. Nemo, ...er, Alvar Hanso (re)appearing and the relationship between those off-island organizations and the US military becoming clarified.

                                          Walt's dream: John is back on the island in a suit surrounded by people who want to hurt him. Caesar and Lady Marshall do not trust each other. Charles Widmore and Ben are both prophesying a war to come in which John is a key figure. Who on the island wants to hurt John, and why?

                                          Perhaps 'yal can assist me to become less confused on one point: did Frogurt get flambéd on the little island where the DHARMA Initiative Hydra station is located, nearby the big main island where the Hatch was located? If so, then somehow I missed that. I thought the beach camp where Frogurt was flambéd was _the_ beach camp on the main island near the Hatch, where many of the LOSTies have been living. So the time-traveling crew of Faraday/Charlotte/Miles/Sawyer/Juilette/John flashed to a beach site on the Hydra station island and _that_ is where the Ajiries have also now crash-landed (though Jack, Kate, and Hurley splash-landed in the main-island pool back in groovey DHARMA-days instead)? So, on the Hyda station island Lapidus and (a woman -which one?) took the passenger manifest and grabbed one of the outriggers, then Sawyer & Co flashed onto the site later on, were disgusted by the DHARMA beer being all drunk up, and took off in an outrigger themselves to be subsequently shot at while at sea? Or was the outrigger-snatching back on the main island at the big usual beach camp? Oh dear, here comes a nosebleed. Somewhere in there I am becoming confused about which island the outrigger canoes are pulled up on by a beach camp with DHARMA beer empties. Any clarifications would be appreciated.
                                          • Steven, they are flashing in time, not space. I think they made that pretty clear. The flaming arrows happened on the Losties beach.

                                            • >The flaming arrows happened on the Losties beach. <

                                              Thanks, bundt. Much appreciated.

                                              Please do assist my understanding to hobble forward a bit more toward clarity, if you or someone else would be so kind; I really did lose the beam on this point: the Losties beach camp on the main island is where Sawyer & Co. jump into the outrigger canoe and put out to sea ...but the Ajiries have crashed (along with Ben and His Otherness John the Risen) on the smaller island where the DHARMA Initiative's Hydra station is located and there --on that smaller island, too-- was also an outrigger canoe (in which Lapidus and a woman paddled off with the passenger manifest)?
                                              • Yes, Steven, you have that correct. I think it's safe to guess that after the plane landed, Lapides and Sun took one of the outriggers to the main island, and that someone followed them. Sometime after the folks from the plane arrived, Sawyer, Locke and the time traveling bunch found the outriggers and went for a paddle.

                                                • Thanks, bundt, much appreciated.

                                                  >>Herod Antipas saw John as a threat and had him executed. Jesus' own ministry followed John's, and some of Jesus' early followers had previously been followers of John. John, like Jesus, preached at a time of political, social, and religious conflict."<<

                                                  If His Otherness John the Risen who Died and Then Stood Born Again In The Waters turns out to have a big hand in protecting and raising Aaron....
                      • Yuni,

                        I looked through this thread and it doesn't seem that anyone else addressed this question. It definitely seems that Hurley, Jack and Kate went through a time flash as they approached the Island and ended up in Dharma Time with Sawyer, Miles, Juliet, etc, while the rest of Flight 316: plane, captain, passengers and cargo all stayed in the present.

                        We haven't seen Sun yet, but assuming that she is the woman who got in the boat with Frank, then yeah, seems she and Jin are stuck in different times.

                        :(
                        • And Sayid? Where is he? I may just be having a memory lapse but...
                          • Sayid was on the plane with the rest of the Losties flying back to the island. But I don't think that he was in the vehicle with Jack and Kate when they drove up to Sawyer... in fact, I don't think we've seen him at all since the crash, so I think we don't know what happened to him after the plane crashed. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
                            • We haven't seen him in an episode but I think we know he is among those that disappeared from the plane before it crashed so he would be in the same timeline as Kate, Sawyer, Jack and Hurley.

                              • >We haven't seen him in an episode but I think we know he is among those that disappeared from the plane before it crashed so he would be in the same timeline as Kate, Sawyer, Jack and Hurley.<

                                Yes, and I think we even see a glimpse of Sayid in bondage (again!) during the preview of this week's episode at the tail end of LeFleur, when some greasy DHARMA fellow is saying to Sawyer "He is a spy- we can end this right now: kill him!" or something like that.


                                • Just came across an interesting tidbit on the historical Jeremy Bentham:

                                  Jeremy Bentham

                                  The 18th-and-19th-century social philosopher left the world a rather odd bequest in his will: his preserved, clothed body.

                                  No one's quite sure what Bentham was getting at with this "gift," but since his 1832 death his clothed skeleton -- topped with a wax model of Bentham's head -- has been preserved in a wood-and-glass cabinet known as the Auto-Icon. It now resides at University College London and is occasionally moved so Bentham can "attend" meetings.

                                  Bentham didn't want for the Auto-Icon to feature a wax head; he actually carried around the glass eyes he wanted used in his preserved face for years before his death. However, the preservation process distorted his face, so the wax replica had to stand in.

                                  For many years Bentham's real head sat between his feet in the Auto-Icon, but it was such a target for pranksters that it eventually had to be locked away.

                                  Source: www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/...ns/index.html

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